Afterbirth Abortion

[King Rat]

MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH
'Bioethicist': OK to kill babies after they're born
'Animal-rights' promoter asserts actual birth makes no difference

Posted: September 14, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

An internationally known Princeton "bioethicist" and animal-rights activist says he'd kill disabled babies if it were in the "best interests" of the family, because he sees no distinction in the child's life whether it is born or not, and the world already allows abortion.

< end of article snip>

Now ain't that something? But, you know what? He's partially right. There is no distinction in the child's life whether it is born or not.

[Crimson]

Right. It's just a matter of passing through the birth canal. To me this just sounds like some anti abortionist trying to prove a point and make a few waves on the pond.

I have to admit though... there have been times I've watched a discovery health show with my wife where a severely disfigured, majorly handicapped child was born. It may cause some of you to see me as an evil meanie.... but I honestly think that in some cases it /would/ be okay to end a life like that. For one, the child is going to live a hard, painful, miserable life. For two, it could be the greatest financial burden the family has ever known just to keep that person alive on a day to day basis. Of course if this were legal there would have to be guidlines and restrictions and all that jazz.

[Pontotocmom]

I am anti-abortion 100%...for me. But I do think parents should have a choice on some cases. Like Crisom said sometimes it devastates a family finacially and emotionally both. Then what happens if the child outlives her/his parents? I know of a boy who was born severally handicapped he has now outlived his mother and father. He isn't safe to have around people because even if his brain didn't grow everything else did. So he was placed in a home, and he has molested the other adult/children in there. So now they have him in 24 hour watch down so maybe they can prevent it. In the mean time he calls members of his family and begs for someone to come and get him.

[Crimson]

What's more... what if living would be more painful for that child than being released to go to heaven, or nirvana... or whatever you want to call the afterlife. I don't see how someone could be so inhuman that they'd force someone to live in agony just because killing them isn't considered humane. Wouldn't it be more humane to end their suffering?

[momof3]

crimson said:

What's more... what if living would be more painful for that child than being released to go to heaven, or nirvana... or whatever you want to call the afterlife. I don't see how someone could be so inhuman that they'd force someone to live in agony just because killing them isn't considered humane. Wouldn't it be more humane to end their suffering?

I'm sorry Crimson, I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't believe in any type of abortion in any form or fashion. I believe that God is in control of every life that is created and that He alone should decide on whether or not that life should live. Although, it would definitely be hard on any parent to take care of a child that has any type of handicaps, I just believe that that person was created for a reason. If you trust in God, then He will give you the strength to take care of that child. We all have some reason of being on this earth. It's our jobs to figure out what that is and use it to the best of our abilities. If you'll notice that throughout the bible, God has been made strong in someone or something that is weak. If we decide to end someone's life to end their suffering, then should we end everyone's life? At least one time in your life, you will suffer from something. It may be a death, it may be an addiction, etc. I had a good friend of mine who was born severely handicapped, and she was one of the best inspirations that I have ever been around. She used to say all the time that she didn't understand why God made her like she was, but she said that He did. Sometimes we don't understand why God allows bad things to happen, but He knows.

[Crimson]

momof3... I am handicapped. Not as severely as some others might be. But still... I have a genetic disorder called Hereditary Spastic Parapalegia. That is... as I age I slowly lose control of my legs. It's a form of paralysis. What's more, I'm blind in my left eye and I have asthma. I constantly had casts on my legs from the time I was two months old until I was six years old. When I was six I had surgery to fix my deformed ankles so that I could walk. Just walk. I can't run. I can't jog. I can't jump. I'm 28 now and by time I'm 35 I'll likely be stuck in a wheelchair. Though I don't yet, I'm told I should be using a cane already.

Now, as I said, this isn't as bad as some handicaps. Under 'after birth abortions' I would be one of the ones allowed to live. Aside from painful cramps that I can't make go away, or losing my balance and falling... I'm relatively ok. There are others, though, who are not. There are children born that cannot move. There are children born with physical deformities that will cause them severe pain their entire lives. Is it right of us to force that person to live even though their life will most assuredly be a life of pain and suffering? I'm not saying that anyone should just be able to say 'kill it'. What I'm saying is there there should be /something/. Guidlines. Laws. Whatever. Just... /Something/.

I'm not a religeous person. I believe what I believe. No. I'm not a satan worshipper. No I'm not a pagan. I usually refrain from calling myself a christian still though. I believe in God. I don't believe in the bible. You can say all that you want that it is a book written through men by god... but I don't see it that way. It's too full of contradictions. It was a book written by men for men in a time when it was used as leverage for power over the weaker minded. Yes, I feel that I was created for a purpose. But I have yet to see a reason why I should be handicapped like I am. It hasn't driven me to do anything greater. It hasn't caused me to be 'enlightened'. Who knows, maybe I'll find my purpose someday. Maybe I don't have a purpose. Maybe I'm just this way because several generations in my family back a man did something horrible to his own daughter. Maybe it's my purpose to suffer for his sins? You can call me jaded. You can call me a heathen if you want. I'm still holding my opinion that there should be instances where the severely handicapped are allowed to have their suffering ended.

[King Rat]

I agree with you, Crimson. I also believe there should be some humanity injected into our healthcare system for all those suffering, whatever the age. Why we allow humans to linger and suffer agonizing deaths when we would never, ever allow an animal to suffer so amazes me. And when the courts and doctors decide a human should be "allowed to die", as in the case of Terri Shivo, the doctors "allow" the death by starvation and dehydration.

If someone is suffering to the point that their pain cannot be eased, and they perfer death, there should be a humane system in place to help them. If the person is incapable of making those decisions for themselves then their next of kin (not automatically the spouse) should make the decision.

When I was in grade school our class went on a field trip to a nursing home where we saw a fairly young man (in his 30's if I recall) who was in an auto accident that left him permanently paralized from the neck down. Bedridden and totally helpless. His body was completely broken but his mind was sound. I have never forgotten that man and have always looked back at that as the ultimate torture. Now I don't know if the man would have chosen death over such an existance but he should have that choice. And if he chose death it should be quick and painless. Given the example of the Shivo case, though, I suspect the only way the doctors would agree to it would be to withhold his food and water until he died in utter agony.

I often wonder if he is still alive.

[granny2young]

When I was right out of high school I worked at a local nursing home, where such a young man resided. I spent almost every lunch break with him. He was so delightful to talk to. His mind was sharp as a tack, though his body was broken. He was paralyzed from his neck down and couldn't even move his hands, what a life to live, but you know he seemed resolved, content, acceptant (whatever word to insert here) to his life. He embraced life and was just glad to be alive. He loved people and seemed to look forward to our daily visits. He even sent out for orange cupcakes for us to eat together, cause they were my favorite. Even though he couldn't eat his without my help, he didn't seem to mind. We shared many laughs and he seemed to embrace each day with a new prespective.

Did he want to die? I am sure there were some days that he did. He laid in a bed day in and day out not being able to move. His family eventually stopped visiting, his wife divorced him and stopped bringing the kids. I am sure his life seemed hopeless at times, but he will never know the impact he had on others.

The end result for this man, he died; but not at his own willing or God's will. He died at the negligence of a young nurses aid who put his bed up too high and his neck slumped over and he smothered because he couldn't pick his own head up to save himself. Should this man have been KILLED long before his time? No way. He had a purpose in life. I don't know what it was, but I think he knew and that is all that mattered.

[momof3]

crimson said:

momof3... I am handicapped. Not as severely as some others might be. But still... I have a genetic disorder called Hereditary Spastic Parapalegia. That is... as I age I slowly lose control of my legs. It's a form of paralysis. What's more, I'm blind in my left eye and I have asthma. I constantly had casts on my legs from the time I was two months old until I was six years old. When I was six I had surgery to fix my deformed ankles so that I could walk. Just walk. I can't run. I can't jog. I can't jump. I'm 28 now and by time I'm 35 I'll likely be stuck in a wheelchair. Though I don't yet, I'm told I should be using a cane already.

Now, as I said, this isn't as bad as some handicaps. Under 'after birth abortions' I would be one of the ones allowed to live. Aside from painful cramps that I can't make go away, or losing my balance and falling... I'm relatively ok. There are others, though, who are not. There are children born that cannot move. There are children born with physical deformities that will cause them severe pain their entire lives. Is it right of us to force that person to live even though their life will most assuredly be a life of pain and suffering? I'm not saying that anyone should just be able to say 'kill it'. What I'm saying is there there should be /something/. Guidlines. Laws. Whatever. Just... /Something/.

I'm not a religeous person. I believe what I believe. No. I'm not a satan worshipper. No I'm not a pagan. I usually refrain from calling myself a christian still though. I believe in God. I don't believe in the bible. You can say all that you want that it is a book written through men by god... but I don't see it that way. It's too full of contradictions. It was a book written by men for men in a time when it was used as leverage for power over the weaker minded. Yes, I feel that I was created for a purpose. But I have yet to see a reason why I should be handicapped like I am. It hasn't driven me to do anything greater. It hasn't caused me to be 'enlightened'. Who knows, maybe I'll find my purpose someday. Maybe I don't have a purpose. Maybe I'm just this way because several generations in my family back a man did something horrible to his own daughter. Maybe it's my purpose to suffer for his sins? You can call me jaded. You can call me a heathen if you want. I'm still holding my opinion that there should be instances where the severely handicapped are allowed to have their suffering ended.

Crimson, I am sorry for your pain and your suffering. Everyone has an opinion and we apparently will differ with ours. But that's okay, I'm not complaining. And by the way I would never call you a "heathen, jaded, etc."

Although, I've never been in your situation and could never imagine what you go through on a day to day basis. I can surely empathize and I will definitely pray for you. However, I still believe that all life and death should be left up to God. Now I understand that you choose to not believe in God and that's okay, it's your choice. Do I agree? Definitely not, but that's where we'll probably just agree to disagree again.

Hypothetically speaking, do you think you would have chosen to be aborted if you had had the choice? Or are you just glad to be alive somedays and not so glad the others?

[Crimson]

momof3 said:

Crimson, I am sorry for your pain and your suffering. Everyone has an opinion and we apparently will differ with ours. But that's okay, I'm not complaining. And by the way I would never call you a "heathen, jaded, etc."

Although, I've never been in your situation and could never imagine what you go through on a day to day basis. I can surely empathize and I will definitely pray for you. However, I still believe that all life and death should be left up to God. Now I understand that you choose to not believe in God and that's okay, it's your choice. Do I agree? Definitely not, but that's where we'll probably just agree to disagree again.

Hypothetically speaking, do you think you would have chosen to be aborted if you had had the choice? Or are you just glad to be alive somedays and not so glad the others?

I do believe in God. Or, if you will, a creator. A higher power of some sort definately. I do not, however, believe that he/she/it controls everything that happens. I just can't. Not with some of the things I've seen. I think we, as living beings, were created and left to make our own choices free of the dictation of the higher power.

I've known about my condition my entire life. It was only given a name about ten years ago. I've had plenty of time to prepare and adjust. Some days are harder than others. Some days are downright hellish. Others I barely even notice.

No, I do not think I should have been aborted. My particular handicap, while being restrictive, I'm still allowed to live a somewhat normal life. When I say it should be allowed I'm referring to /extreme/ cases. For example a child was born with a unimaginably disfigured head. This child could not breath, could not eat, could barely move, could not see. The only sounds it could make were gurgling, painful noises. This child, however, was kept alive. Paralyzed, disfigured and in intense pain. It was kept alive for quite awhile before it died of natural causes. If that had been my child I would have let it go sooner to save it that pain and suffering. I would find that my duty as a father to let my child go so he/she didn't suffer like that. As I said, there should be laws.... guidelines... whatever... in place to govern this. IT shouldn't just be the parent that says 'kill it'... there should be a process.

I worked for a man who was a C4 Quadrapalegic. He couldn't use his hands but he had limited use of his shoulders and arms. Though I was a CADD operator we'd often hang out after work. I'd help him smoke. I'd help him eat. Hell, I've even lifted him into his bed. He didn't want to die. He did have a purpose. He invented a device called the Quadpuck. A sip and puff device for paralyzed people to use.

I'm pro choice. I believe a woman should have a choice to get an abortion based on her own beliefs and circumstances. Would I ever, where I female, get an abortion... no. I wouldn't. Not unless it threatened to end my life. But I do believe that women should have that choice.

Sometimes I feel that we've put too much importance on humanity. We are, like anything else on this planet, animals. We live. We die. We bend. We break. Like Kingrat said, why are we more humane to animals than we are to our own kind? Why is it ok to put down a lame horse or a suffering dog but it's not okay for a human being to be able to choose the same thing for themselves?

[King Rat]

Suppose that same man had NOT been content and resolved to his life of immobility, Granny? Suppose his sharp mind tortured him each and every hour of the day because he could only lie there? Should he be allowed to make the decision for himself?

I heard on the radio the other day about a child who had a rare form of meningitis (sp?) that forced doctors to amputate both arms and both legs to save her life. As a parent who loves his children more than my own life, I can honestly say I would rather see my child die than suffer that fate.

[momof3]

This is one of those topics that is very touchy and that everyone has differing opinions and beliefs. As you can tell, I am definitely Pro-Life. I even have a choose life car tag. However, even I realize there are exceptions to every rule. The baby that you talked about Crimson, I probably would have given a DNR order. However, I still like to believe that I would have let the baby die of natural causes.

It's one of those things where you really don't know what you would do until you were in that position. (Which I can honestly say, I hope I'm never there.)

[zipzam]

cpurdon said:

MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH
'Bioethicist': OK to kill babies after they're born
'Animal-rights' promoter asserts actual birth makes no difference

Posted: September 14, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

An internationally known Princeton "bioethicist" and animal-rights activist says he'd kill disabled babies if it were in the "best interests" of the family, because he sees no distinction in the child's life whether it is born or not, and the world already allows abortion.

< end of article snip>

Now ain't that something? But, you know what? He's partially right. There is no distinction in the child's life whether it is born or not.

i think it's a VERY good point. if abortion is legal and it's a "choice"... why don't parents have that same choice throughout the child's life?

i honestly do not see the difference.
a woman can abort a child b/c she's "low income, the child wouldn't have any kind of life, etc etc.".

well, why can i put my 4 year old child out of his misery if i'm low income, he's starving, he's deformed, he's mentally retarded, etc etc.

seriously, if anyone argues FOR abortion, i don't see how they can argue against this.

[King Rat]

momof3 said:

.

It's one of those things where you really don't know what you would do until you were in that position. (Which I can honestly say, I hope I'm never there.)

As a parent, I the worst thing in the world I can imagine is to see one of my kids suffer and not be able to do anything about it. There ARE worse things than death. To me, and this is just MY opinion, if I forced my child to live a life of agony just because I don't want to give that child up then I would be selfish. Once the child dies the suffering for the child is over. For the parent it will never end. But I would rather have that burden on my shoulders than on my child. Of course I'm only talking about extreme cases and not advocating killing kids because they are no longer wanted.

My wife and I have discussed something similar: If one of my kids died it would devastate me but I would go on. If someone kidnapped one of my kids I honestly don't think I would be able to function until I knew whether my child was alive or dead. To have a child kidnapped and have to wonder if he/she is being abused or tortured, or thinking of my child in some scary place wondering why I didn't come rescue him is an unimaginable horror to me.

[Pontotocmom]

I agree with you King Rat. Even though I'm not sure how well I'd function without my kids. I would put their pain way before mine. They are the reason I get up in the mornings.